Thursday, December 04, 2008

Prorogue


So, our government has moved to prorogue Parliament. Here is a new thread to express your thoughts...

31 comments:

Scott said...

Good move, things need to settle, you can't fix instability in the economy when you have all this stuff going on. The budget was always going to be next year, Canadians Voted for that. The NDP and Liberal plan was the same too. You can't just throw a budget together, you can't just pull one out of you ___ either.

Especially in these times of economic uncertainty, a budget needs to be calculated carefully. Everyone wants a quick fix here, but there isn't one. People forget, political problems are a like other life problems, they need time and care to fix.

Anonymous said...

what are the thoughts of soul pastor?

SoulPastor said...

What are the names of Anonymous?

Scott said...

Like i said, not all Liberals or NDP are with this coalition idea, go as far to say it is "finished".

http://www.winnipegsun.com/News/Canada/2008/12/04/7635311.html

Jordan said...

I must say, I had a good laugh at the speech that Mr. Dion delivered to CBC. CTV managed to book off air time to show it and no tape showed up. Anyways, as for the prorogue it seems that a coalition supporter would criticize Harper as not addressing the economic crisis as which we find ourselves in. And calling him a 'coward' or what have you for not even bringing the house to a vote of confidence.
And as for a Conservative view of this prorogue, well just scroll up to Scott's post.

Kyle said...

I think the prorogue was a mistake. I believe the GG should've called an election to take the coalition to the polls. Now Canadians know the true intentions of the opposition.... just to take power at all costs!

Did Dion use his own cell phone to record his address??? lol Sorry, had to make comment about that even though it probably wasn't his fault. It's just funny. I don't even know what the whole point of the national address was in the first place. It's not like we have a choice in the matter.

Also, did anyone notice the book behind Dion titled "HOT AIR"? I guess he's been to the self help section of Chapters. It shows that he's at least a little self aware.

All joking aside, I believe that this is an issue for the people of Canada to decide. Not the GG. The coalition only has one goal and it's to oust Stephen Harper no matter what he does. An election would've been over with in a few weeks, and the government could get back to work. We all know if an election were called now, the Conservatives would grab a majority. I think most of Canada is sick and tired of the games that Dion & Layton are playing to achieve power.

I just hope and pray that some Liberals cool their jets and deflect to the Conservatives over the extended Christmas break. Who knows, maybe the Conservatives will come back in January with a majority of the house???? We all know now to expect the unexpected. Just food for thought.

Jean said...

LOL - Soul Pastor:)

As much as I like to see that the government is going to sit and cool its heels for a good month, I am astonished and dismayed at the name-calling and finger-pointing by many of our elected representatives. Shouts of "separatists" in the House only solidify support from Quebec to the PQ which will diminish Quebec support for the leading party (not good in case of an election). It also reminds me of the mid 90s and the referendum when it was much more of an "us" vs "them" Canada. I fear this has broken some of the bridges Canada has worken so hard to mend.
Damage has been done - it's too late to fix that now.

Kyle said...

Why is it that we let Quebec dictate what happens in the rest of the country? How long are we going to let that happen? The constant threat of separation holds the rest of the country hostage. It won't be long before Alberta decides they've had enough and will start seriously considering separation. It sounds ridiculous right now, but I don't think it's far from reality.

The change should start with dropping the Bloc as a Federal party. Their main platform is to rip the country apart. With representation from ONLY Quebec, they should not be allowed to be a recognized Federal party.

I think the proroguing Parliament was a mistake. But forming a coalition with Separatists was an even bigger mistake. The Liberals and NDP are going to pay for that mistake in the next election.

Brad said...

"The change should start with dropping the Bloc as a Federal party. Their main platform is to rip the country apart. With representation from ONLY Quebec, they should not be allowed to be a recognized Federal party."

The funny thing about a democracy is that everyone is entitled to their right to vote however they see fit.

Scott said...

Funny thing Brad, we did vote, we voted in a Conservative government, and now some people are trying to take away what we voted for. And we can't vote Bloc, so even if i wanted too, i would have to be a Quebec resident to do so.

If this is a democracy, then a Coalition is undemocratic based on the way the election went 7 weeks ago. And the way they are going against the peoples vote is highly against democratic reforms.

Kyle said...

Funny thing Brad, you can't vote for the Bloc anywhere else in the country other than Quebec!!! How is that democratic when 1 province has so much say in how our FEDERAL government forms? KEY WORD: FEDERAL!!!! Be realistic. In a Federal election, we should have the same options as everyone else country-wide. THEN, you'd have a valid point!

Next.....

Kyle J. Mason said...

Not taking the side of any political party.... I think the GG has allowed a bad precedent to be set. I foresee future governments using this prorogue option any time they know they are about to be defeated and this will only bring more unnecessary drama to our government.

DJ said...

Personally, I think telling the 'boys' to go to their rooms for a time out was a great solution - of course made by a woman!

SoulPastor said...

THAT IS FUNNY!

Scott said...

that is funny indeed.

"Not taking the side of any political party.... I think the GG has allowed a bad precedent to be set. I foresee future governments using this prorogue option any time they know they are about to be defeated and this will only bring more unnecessary drama to our government."

I don't know, i don't think the Liberals or the NDP will make this mistake again, especially when there will be much less support for it in the future.

Gregg said...

Okay I've had just about enough of this ignorant babble spewing from peoples mouths about how this is undemocratic and the bloc shouldn't exist ect. ect. I don't know If you all fell asleep during history and geography or maybe just failed but i don't think anyone here really has an idea how our government is formed. I'm tired of typing so im going to pull my post from another blog and put it here!


Now for a quick lesson on how our parliamentary system works. We don't elect our prime minister we vote on our own riding MP. MP's choose to be part of a party. When a party has the majority of seats they govern parliament with their votes. In the case of a minority gov. if the minority party loses the confidence of the house the G.G. (who has not been present) can turn to the opp. and ask them to lead parliament. OR the opp can move for a vote of non confidence and form a coalition of MP's to form a governing body.

too all this complaining about the bloc being part of the coalition, they have no say in the governing body. They have simply signed an agreement to vote with the coalition on issues in return for a reduced waiting time for EI and EI price increase in Quebec. In no way shape or form are separatists running anything.

It seems everyone has forgotten that the conservatives made a coalition with the block n 2004 to topple Pat Martins liberal minority gov.

Did you forget that it was under liberal finance Minister Pat Martin that we finally achieved a surplus?? This is playing a huge part in why Canada is not being hit as hard economically. It was this socialist liberal party that pulled Canada our of a deficit and created a plan to produce a surplus and continue doing so until Harper.

I really don't understand what everyone's fear of socialism is for. Our left wing parties are not very left at all.

What i find so disturbing is that the G.G. allowed for parliament to be dissolved in the face of a vote of non confidence. Right now Harper is running the gov. without a mandate and the confidence of the house which is truly undemocratic. all the G.G. has done is prolong the inevitable!

Gregg said...

you also have to realize that this coalition now represents 62% of the vote! See that same thing that happened to the PC and Reform for all of the 90's is now happening to the liberal NDP. Their votes are being split and they are losing crucial seats.

Right now your seeing a flip from the 90's Ontario has lost its stance as the money making province and the liberals defeating the tories due to a vote split. Now the alberta is the money making province and and the conservatives are winning due to a vote split between the liberal and NDP.

In no way shape or form do I want conservatives from the west running this Country. Harper is arrogant and ignorant to the changes needed in this country. 19 out the 20, G20 countries have already developed an economic plan for the next few years of trouble. Guess who hasn't.

With the price of oil dropping to 45 dollars a barrel today it puts Alberta's oil sands at break even point, so they are no longer turning a profit. Canada has the ability to become one of the most leading green economies around but Harper is too arrogant to admit it and his oil is too easy to rely on.

Harper has failed at leading this country! it is completely withing the right of the opp to lose confidence and form a coalition. Don't forget people voted for them as well. So now they represent a majority of votes.

Kyle said...

Looks like I've been taught a lesson from Gregg. lol

Pat Martin???? Ummmm.... I think you mean Paul Martin. I guess you're the one that needs to get the facts straight!! Most of your other 'facts' in your so called lesson are also incorrect. But, nice try!

As far as the Bloc not having any say... they will hold the balance of power. The NDP/Liberal coalition do not have enough seats to pass gas, let alone legislation. You know what though? I'm wasting my time trying responding to someone that suggests we may have failed history, so I'm just going to let you think you know it all. But keep talking. And what does geography have to do with this discussion?

I think you really need to understand the issues before making such blunt statements. You are no doubt a socialist, so I excuse your ignorance to the real issues at hand.

Scott said...

"Harper has failed at leading this country! it is completely withing the right of the opp to lose confidence and form a coalition. Don't forget people voted for them as well. So now they represent a majority of votes."

Don't forget that people voted for three different parties that make up for this 62%. In no way would NDP voters vote for Liberal candidates. And no one outside Quebec can vote the for the Bloc. Just because three leaders want to represent 62% of the vote, doesn't mean that 62% is represented by the people who voted. It is split ways, and in different percentages.

Lets be realistic here.

"19 out the 20, G20 countries have already developed an economic plan for the next few years of trouble. Guess who hasn't."

Funny, of those 19 other countries, 19 of them have majorities in their respective government systems, or have enough power to stage a budget without trouble. How easy do you think it is to pass a budget when the other parties want nothing more then to pick it apart and then veto it? Furthermore we are in Recession, most countries had budgets set before this hit. I'd love to see the wait for a budget from the Liberals, for goodness sake they couldn't get a video to the Canadian people out on time.

Again, realism is key, or is it logic?

"Right now your seeing a flip from the 90's Ontario has lost its stance as the money making province and the liberals defeating the Tories due to a vote split. Now the Alberta is the money making province and and the conservatives are winning due to a vote split between the liberal and NDP."

Actually, what you are seeing right now is the effect of years of scandal, broken promises, and ignorance by the Liberals to anyone in Western Canada. It is well documented. What you are also seeing is that Canada wants change, so much so that they won more seats in Ontario then they have in half a century. They swept Alberta, because Green Shift does not help oil companies one bit. They did well in BC because taxes on the forest industry doesn't appeal to that provinces #1 export.

Disagree all you want, the facts speak for themselves.

Kyle said...

Well said Scott. You've got more patience than me to actually spend the time to respond to Gregg's ignorance. You're right, the facts do speak for themselves.

And by they way, you did not mention that Canada is in the best economic shape than any other member of the G20. That will all come to an end with a coalition. Just puts too much instability into our government. Too many unknowns. Oh, and the fact that separatists hold the balance of power is a little more than disturbing.

Brad said...

"Funny thing Brad, you can't vote for the Bloc anywhere else in the country other than Quebec!!! How is that democratic when 1 province has so much say in how our FEDERAL government forms? KEY WORD: FEDERAL!!!! Be realistic. In a Federal election, we should have the same options as everyone else country-wide. THEN, you'd have a valid point!"

What!?!?!?!? Didn't we learn about he basics of democracy and parliament in like grade 6. A democracy is where anybody can vote for whomever they feel like. If they want to vote Bloc, they can vote Bloc. If they want to vote Christian Heritage, they can vote Christian Heritage. If they want to vote for some independent running on a platform of free cheeseburgers and Dr. Pepper for everyone, they can vote for that independent.

Saying the Bloc shouldn't be allowed in the democratic process completely shoots down your previous argument about how some sort of coalition is undemocratic (which its not, but I'm not even going to fight that battle here), because you clearly have no understanding about the most basic point about democracy. No, you can't vote Bloc in Manitoba because nobody is running. I am pretty sure though, that if you really badly wanted to vote for Bloc, you could probably try and gain the party's endorsement and run yourself if they will endorse you. Sure, they probably won't endorse you, but they don't have to because its their party and they have the right to run it however they chose.

(The fact is, if the other parties actually listened to Quebec voters, maybe the wouldn't want to separate and maybe the Bloc wouldn't be as popular as they are today amongst Quebec voters.)

I'm not arguing either side in this space, but this complete lack of understanding about the basics of democracy is asinine.

Gregg said...

My "ignorance"
Right call me a socialist right away because I don't support Harper or democracy according to you.

Sorry for the mistake I meant Paul Martin typo*

If you remember geography grade 9 you take politics in that class but that's ok like i said you either failed it or fell asleep.

Wow Kyle I didn't know you were an economist how so do you say Canada is doing well? Seems to me we have had two quarters of loss already. We are moving from a surplus to a defeceit. We have had some of our highest jobs losses.

You complain not eveyone would vote a coalition, agreed but only 32% of Canada voted for Harper.

You complain about undemocratic processes yet you want to remove a party because they are confined to a province. I thought democracy allowed for all voices to be heard???

You support a man who is moving to to cap a civil servants salary then remove his right to strike. Then to remove a woman's right to challenge equal pay rights. Well, understood you are a conservative.

I don't completely agree with having a coalition but i understand it and it's part of our democratic system like it or not.

I know anything i type here isn't going to make a difference in that thick head of yours I am now labeled a socialist and deemed unworthy of society. Let the rich get Richer and the poor well who the hell cares about them anyway!!

Derek said...

....just because we are in the best economic shape out of all of the members of the G20 does not mean that it is good shape. I think that Steven Harper has not done a good job since the election...he can not try to govern as if he has a majority, which is what he has tried to do since the election.

Also, I want to make a point and let you know that I am a conservative supporter....so i am not arguing in favor of the NDP or the Liberals...i just want everyone to think about the fact that not one of the parties is right in this...

I think that there would be a lot more headway made in both the government, as well as on these boards if everyone could realize that it is quite obvious that all the parties involved have fault, and the conservatives are by no means perfect.

We need a PM that will at least attempt to work with the other parties, which as of right now...we do not have.

I wonder how many business owners you people have talked to that have gone into receivership, or have gone bankrupt in the last 6 months...I am curious to know how much you actually know about our economy, either locally, or north american...

Kyle said...

All parties are acting like little children. I am not happy with any of them right now. They have ALL let our country down. I have never said the coalition is undemocratic. I have said often that it is part of our system, but it is a flaw.

How do you know I am not an Economist? In fact, I am extremely active in the business community and meet with business owners (of all levels) on a daily basis. In the past month I have dealt with a few businesses that have either closed their doors or have been bought out by the competition. These situations are often sad, however, right or wrong is all part of capitalism.

When I say that Canada is in the best economic state in the G20, I did not say we were in an excellent position. We have been managing ourselves quite well in relative terms. You can not fully blame a government for job cuts in this crisis.

Lets take the automotive industry for example, an industry that I am extremely educated and involved in. As you are aware, the big 3 are looking for a bailout. I am not convinced that a bailout is a good thing. Taxpayers should not be on the hook for poor management and UNION greed. The unions have destroyed these very large corporations. Why does Toyota (the worlds largest automaker) not need a bailout? Or Honda, Nissan, and Mazda for that matter? If we don't bail them out, it gives GM, Chrysler, and Ford a great opportunity to restructure. This is the time to remove their unions, adjust salaries to a reasonable level, and emerge as even stronger companies as a result. Let capitalism take its natural course and leave the government out! Government has no business being in business.

All parties have claimed that they can not avoid a temporary deficit in these economic times. In fact, running a temporary deficit is NOT a bad thing. The key is to keep the deficit under control and to keep it temporary. Money still needs to be spent in this country to keep the economy moving. If people stop spending (including the government) that is when our economy tanks. KEEP SPENDING!

Yes Gregg, I call you a socialist. However, I did not say in any way that you were unworthy of society. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

Scott said...

So then Gregg, who do we support?

A liberal government, full of Scandals, ineffective leaders, and a failing party as a whole?

Or maybe a NDP government, supporters to the people we are fighting against in Afghanistan, traitors to their own country. With a leader that would NEVER reach across the isle.

Brad, i cannot run for the Bloc, which they will not let you unless you are in Quebec, that takes away my freedom of vote. That in itself is a violation of democracy. I'm not sure what democracy you learned in school, but it seems twisted.

The rest of Gregg's posts include nothing more then bashing everyone that doesn't support the Socialists. There is no good points in those posts, nothing with meat, and rarely any facts, so i render them useless.

"We need a PM that will at least attempt to work with the other parties, which as of right now...we do not have."

Agreed, but lets wait for January, lets take a look at the budget, there will be a confidence vote either way at that time, like after every money bill. We can decide then who is reaching across to who.

You guys pick on the littlest of things about Harper, so i will pick on some of the bigger things about the other two.

As far as the Economy, we are still best in the G20, and like Kyle said, while it may not be perfect, we are still going into a world recession in the best shape.

Gregg said...

Scott from now on read a post before you shoot off your usual jaded comments. I attack no one but Stephen Harper and defend myself from your and Kyle's comments.

Kyle I agree completely the big 3 deserve no bailout! They made their decisions and now are paying for them.

Also i agree all the politicians are acting like little kids but when have they not. they have always moved to save their own ass and care less about who they represent.

Scott stop spouting off all the biased comments on the other party leaders before you remove the huge oak blocking your view of Harper.

I am in no way defending the actions of anyone. But your statements are as usual over exaggerated. Layton does not support the war, that does not mean he does not support the troops and is a traitor to the country.

You ask for a PM that will work with the parties agreed not one that will bankrupt them and not let them into the house.

Kyle your calling me a socialist is incorrect but in the fact that i am a Marxist. Socialism is simply the transitional period from capitalism to communism as defined by Karl Marx.

What scares me is this fascist orientated capitalism that has destroyed America and now looms over Canada.

And now let the criticisms role because i dropped the word Marxist, communism and fascist.

Scott said...

Well I'm glad I'm not the one attacking other posters for once. It's time for me to bow out of this discussion. Not only has it become immature, but we have lost good debating that has happened before these posts arrived. Thanks for the good topic Gerry, too bad it cannot continue. Well at least for me that is...

Gregg said...

Immature?? I agree with Kyle on his points as he put out great thoughts and point out your over exaggerated comments about Layton. I don't know how my post is at all immature?

Kyle said...

I too, am done.

Brad said...

So Scott....if I wanted to run for the Christian Heritage party and they told me I couldn't run for their party because I wasn't a Christian, is that also undemocratic? I think you're confused on democracy. Democracy isn't that anybody can run for whatever party they want to. The parties determine who runs when and where...its their right. A democracy is all about the freedom to vote for whomever you want. It's very basic and very simple.

Gregg said...

I want to vote for the Rhino party again! Their platform has to be the best of all the parties. two feet high and made of wood!

Also I believe they their main promise to keep none of their promises is the most accurate! They have also set forth to rid the country of crime by abolishing all laws!